Happy, Healthy, & Wealthy Therapists | Ep 60: Do You Profit From Pain or From Healing?

Released: 10/9/2026

Show Notes:

Amanda talks with Katie, a Washington State therapist who mentors other therapists, about the emotions underneath fee increases and consult calls. Katie shares starting out at $60 to $80 a session and the reframe that changed how she sees earning money from this work. Amanda adds how she brings the same block to her therapist and her business coach, and why each conversation goes differently. Together they look at where coaching ends and therapy begins, and how to choose community that supports a decision instead of picking it apart. Katie also offers a CEO check-in day as a way to slow down. Amanda closes by reminding therapists that the emotion deserves as much attention as the strategy.

About Katie:

Katie is a licensed therapist in Washington State and business coach for therapists. She helps therapists unlearn the conditioning of being overly accommodating in their business so that they can feel empowered to make business decisions that align with their needs and their values. Whether it’s healing money wounds, implementing boundaries, increasing personal time and capacity, or overcoming the expectations that as helpers, our labor should be free, Katie is in your corner all the way. When she’s not working, you can find her at a bookstore, out for coffee or chilling at home with her spouse and her three dogs.

Connect with Katie:

• Follow on Instagram: @rainyday_therapy
• Built Without Guilt Mastermind

3 Key Takeaways:

1. The guilt and shame therapists feel about money, fees, and marketing are not personality flaws; they are direct products of the messaging most of us absorbed in grad school, and doing actual emotional work around those messages is just as necessary as learning any business strategy.
2. Finding the right community changes everything, because asking the wrong people about a fee increase or a business decision will almost always trigger someone else’s financial anxiety or judgment, and that feedback has nothing to do with whether your decision is actually right for you.
3. Slowing down to check in with how you feel about your practice, not just how the numbers look, is one of the most underused tools a therapist-business-owner has, and making time for that regularly is what separates decisions made from fear from decisions made from alignment.

This episode is sponsored by:

• Alma – learn more here
• Jane – use code: AMANDA2MO for a 2-month grace period

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Transcript:

Amanda Buduris (00:01)
Hey Katie, thanks for joining me today.

Katie (00:03)
Hi, thanks for having me.

Amanda Buduris (00:05)
Yeah, I’m excited to talk about this topic of, you know, what you really help therapists with because I’ve probably talked about it quite a bit on the podcast, but not so focused. I might have mentioned like our emotions and our guilt and our shames and our blocks and things like that. But you talk about this all the time. So tell the listeners who may not be familiar with you, you know, who you are, where you are, and why is guilt and shame something that you care so much to talk about.

Katie (00:33)
Yeah, so I’m Katie. I’m in Washington State. and I care so much about this because it’s been, I guess, mostly a lot of my journey in building my own practice. I started my practice right out of grad school and I

feel like I just have been winging it since and that was seven years ago.

Amanda Buduris (00:54)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (00:57)
so yeah and my supervisor during my associate years like had never run a practice either so I really didn’t have like any

support in the business building piece. And so I was constantly worried about feeling like I’m harming my clients or I’m making the wrong decisions or am I allowed to do this? Like it was just a lot of self-doubt. and now that I’ve kind I’ve moved through a lot of that and I feel like I’ve landed in a pretty solid place in my practice.

I just want to mentor people through that too because I think a lot of like business related things are very task oriented. They’re focused on like if you need more clients, just do XYZ. And they don’t always address the barriers that are in the way, which are often the emotional experience for therapists. So

Amanda Buduris (01:49)
Yep. Yep. I noticed that all the time as I coach therapists through different strategies around, well, here’s what we got to do on your website and here’s what we’ve got to do with your pricing. Like giving the ideas and the strategy in and of itself, like it’s not hard. We could, okay, click some buttons, launch a website, click some buttons, type some keys, update our fees, but it’s usually the mindset stuff or the emotional stuff that prevents people from.

Well, actually, if more people find me from my website, then more people are gonna actually see me and then I’m gonna have to actually run a business. And so

Katie (02:24)
Right.

Amanda Buduris (02:25)
there definitely is this. We’re all highly educated, whether we have masters, doctors, both. It’s not a matter of can we do the task, but yeah, this emotional stuff that comes up for us. So what were you noticing even in like the early days of your practice as you started to market yourself and started to even get your first clients? Like,

What was coming up for you?

Katie (02:48)
Mm. Yeah, well, when I started my practice, I was charging like sixty or eighty dollars a session. And at the time that felt like, ooh, good money, right?

And

Amanda Buduris (02:57)
Yeah.

Katie (02:58)
but I didn’t realize how quickly burnout happens when I’m having to fill my schedule more, because I’m charging less. And the idea of putting my financial needs above client care felt so icky. I couldn’t

wrap my brain around the balance of that and that it like me making more money didn’t mean I didn’t care like I don’t care about them, right? So, but I struggled with that for a very long time.

I think in general the idea of prioritizing myself in my business was it that was just kind of the the overarching issue. I would answer texts when I’m off, right? Like I just I wasn’t having boundaries and I wasn’t

acting in alignment with like what I needed. I was just so focused on whatever clients need, I will do that. so there was that component. And then I didn’t really do a ton of marketing before I started my practice

like six months before twenty twenty. And so

Amanda Buduris (04:11)
No.

Katie (04:12)
like at that time psych today was really working for me.

Amanda Buduris (04:16)
Yep.

Katie (04:17)
but then, you know, COVID happened and all that. You know, it was much easier to get clients during that time ’cause there were so many people seeking support.

Amanda Buduris (04:25)
Yes.

Katie (04:25)
so I didn’t run into issues around marketing until probably twenty twenty three and I had a huge slowdown happen and I panicked.

And so that’s where I started looking into my own coaching around website stuff, marketing, all that. and it was helpful in terms of like set your website up this way, do keywords like this, like here’s what SEO is. But then when it came to like telling people on consult calls how much I charge or being confident in my skills and things like that, like that’s where I still felt

the the guilt and the shame. So yeah.

Amanda Buduris (05:09)
Yeah, because again, you can do the task, but there’s emotion tied to the task. And I think each of us, you know, we each have our different like, are you a LCSW or LCP or whatever your specific thing is? Some therapists I’ve talked to have basically explicitly been told in their graduate programs those different messages around, like, you know, it is about the client first. Like you aren’t really a part.

Of this work. You’re a part of helping them, but we don’t really get explicitly told so much, take care of yourself. And that includes not just get your rest and exercise and have hobbies, but also like financially make sure you’re doing okay. Because, well, number one, I think th therapists too are also that we just really struggle to talk about money. And it sucks that that wasn’t better modeled for us in grad school by.

These adults in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, but maybe they’re doing better financially than than we are these days. but it is, it’s like this message of like I shouldn’t profit from other people’s pain. I’ve seen things like that when I talk about what my fees are. If I post something to Instagram and it falls in the wrong corner of the internet. What do you think about that piece? You said that a little bit, like how much did you struggle with the fact that people are in pain is why you make money.

Katie (06:35)
Yeah, I mean

I had to reframe it and I can’t remember at what point this happened, but I remember I was reading an Instagram post. It I think it was from Tiffany McClain talking about money.

And there was a lot of comments in there about profiting off of people’s pain. And my immediate response was, I actually make money off of people’s growth and their progress and their overcoming of things and their healing. And it was just like this light bulb moment for me of like, we could look at this differently.

Amanda Buduris (07:11)
Yeah.

Katie (07:12)
And that’s what I imagine our clients like I don’t think our clients feel like, Katie’s profiting off of my pain. Like they w probably wouldn’t continue if that was the case.

Amanda Buduris (07:23)
Right, yes.

Katie (07:24)
so I also think therapists put more pressure on themselves around that than clients do. and this like guilt or martyrdom of

Yeah, like running a business on people’s emotional pain on their trauma. It does feel weird. And there’s a way to mix the heart of being a therapist and the brain of being a business owner and like doing you can do that well. but you have to do work around that. Cause it’s

Amanda Buduris (07:57)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (07:57)
yeah, coming from grad school, it’s not a natural at least for me, it wasn’t natural. Like I received so much messaging around

Private practice isn’t the way. Community mental health is where you should be. you know, you’re not in it for the money, stuff like that. And I’m like, Well, I’m paying a lot of money to go to a school that’s telling me I’m not gonna make any. So yeah.

Amanda Buduris (08:19)
Yes.

Yeah. And and just to bring some topicalness to that piece of, you know, Trump now announcing our field doesn’t make money. And so now we actually aren’t even eligible for student loans for anyone coming out. Like I just think we can go down a whole different rabbit hole there. I won’t do it, but I think it is just gonna create more problems with accessibility and representation. But again, it’s it’s this problem of people assume

Helpers shouldn’t make money, right? That we are there just to help. And I think that is why all of us get into this work. I’ve never heard someone say, Well, I’m gonna do this because I think there’s a lot of money in it. They do it because we all grew up with our own trauma or moments of not being seen and heard and like accepted by others. And then we went to therapy and then we had that experience and we’re like, cool, I wanna do that for other people. Like that’s the story I’ve heard from everyone who’s become a therapist. So

when it comes to that that kind of integration of therapist and business owner, what type of work did you have to do to integrate those identities?

Katie (09:29)
Yeah, I remember at some point the concept of your business is an extension of yourself.

being introduced to me and I really held on to that and ran with it. Because I was like, okay, well if I think of my business as an extension of my like how I am as a human and a therapist with people, then how would my business run with that in mind? Right. And so it’s like I think cancellation policies is always a great example of this where I’m like, if I purely only thought about myself, I would probably go as strict as possible to make sure that I’m making money

Even when people cancel so that I am financially taken care of. And then I have the opposite end of that where my therapist brain is only thinking about the client. So now I’m like, I’ll never ever charge for cancellations because

Amanda Buduris (10:20)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (10:21)
life happens and I care and I don’t want to add to them their burden and all the things, right? So I’m like, if I think of it as these are the two far ends of that, what’s in the middle? And then I go from there.

And that’s with, yeah, my schedule, with how flexible I will be for people.

You know, even with like when clients text me if I’m not in the office, I have an an app that sends them an auto message to let them know I’m not in and here are resources if it’s an emergency, right? Like it’s just about finding balance. and so yeah, I just I I really liked the idea of instead of my business feeling separate from my therapy, like trying to tie those two things together and find a balance in meeting both needs of those those two identities.

Amanda Buduris (11:14)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially like cancellation, reschedule, late reschedule, like whatever those policies are. I do know some people who are just like quite strict about it and that is what it is. Like some people treat it. I do not have human children. I have fur children, but people are like, my daycare doesn’t care how many times my child shows up or not. Like I’m paying for it regardless. And I’m like, I don’t know if that’s my personal that’s not my policy in therapy. And I don’t think it ever would be, but that doesn’t mean that that’s wrong. That just means that is that.

persons, like that’s what works for them. And like that’s the beauty of your business is you get to do what works for you. And we all have our human side too. People might have stricter policies on paper and then be a little bit more flexible with the humans that they’re working with. So it’s definitely not most people I don’t think are acting in the extremes. They’re finding somewhere in the middle. But I think the perception, interestingly, that I hear from therapists over and over is

You know, I I do care so much about what my clients think of my fees and my policies and things like that, but mostly I’m worried about what other therapists are gonna think of me when I raise my fee or have this policy or stuff like that. So what have you seen as you’ve talked with therapists around guilt and shame? Do you think it’s more guilt and shame around how other therapists are gonna perceive them or how potential clients will perceive them?

Katie (12:38)
It’s interesting ’cause I feel like it’s that is also split. Like I think when it’s like if my therapy therapist hat is on now, I’m worried that if I increase my fee, for example, my clients are gonna all hate me and leave.

Right. But if I have my business hat on, then I’m worried like like if I go if I try to consult with colleagues about what are you what do you think about a fee increase next year and I get all this negative feedback, then that makes me feel bad. Right. So what I have learned is no matter what the question is, is like finding the right community to be asking for support from.

Facebook groups we all know is not it. so

Amanda Buduris (13:23)
No, no, no, no.

Katie (13:25)
so that was another shift I had to make. even some of my closest friends don’t always support me in the way that I need them to because they either don’t understand how running a business works or they are therapy clients themselves and they’re like, I couldn’t imagine paying that for therapy, right? So it’s their own stuff that gets in there, but then I leave feeling like I’m a bad person because my closest friends wouldn’t even

support me right so over time I’ve learned that community makes a big difference and finding colleagues that can either have a similar mindset or similar goals are that’s helpful in like empowering you to do what you need to do versus having people that are kind of like Debbie Downers about everything. and I’m not saying to just find like people who are yes men right but

Amanda Buduris (14:16)
Yes.

Katie (14:17)
Like I think

being challenged is important and helpful, especially when

Amanda Buduris (14:20)
Yes.

Katie (14:21)
making business decisions. But if you’re constantly filled with too many people’s opinions about it and you’re not able to really assess, like, what do I need, then that’s not helpful. So

Amanda Buduris (14:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think, I think it must have been even just earlier this week. I saw you post something on Instagram that was like, everything’s a good idea until you ask too many people about it, and something like that. which is true. Like anyone who thinks like, this is a business idea I want to start, this is a niche I want to pick, this is a decision I want to make in my business, like it comes from us at first because it’s a good idea for us. It would solve a problem, it’d be something we’re excited about.

And then we tell other people about it. And if they’re not similarly minded, or if they don’t at least lead with curiosity, if they’re just leading with judgment, then it does immediately make us feel like, whoops, I made the wrong decision. I fucked like, I’m not supposed to do that. Instead of yeah, like your fee might be higher than some of your colleagues and your friends may not pay that fee for therapy, but that doesn’t mean that that’s wrong for you. Because again, like you have to take care of yourself.

to continue to take care of your clients.

Katie (15:35)
Yeah, and there’s been times since doing my own mindset work and like finding more supportive community that I’ll still ask a question and get judgment and I immediately argue back.

So it’s almost it’s been nice not having the like, someone disagrees with me and so now I have to feel bad about it. But they disagree and it almost reinforces like, no, this actually does feel like a solid plan for me, or this feels right for me. and just because they disagree doesn’t mean I have to change my mind. So

Amanda Buduris (16:05)
Yep. Yep. Exactly. I’m curious from either your personal perspective and or things that you’ve talked with other therapists about, do you feel like the boundary they most struggle to hold is around money or schedule or something different entirely?

Katie (16:24)
Mean, I think money is the biggest one. or it’s maybe the umbrella and then everything un is underneath that piece. Like if we’re talking about boundaries around money, that then connects to schedule and how many clients you’re seeing and do you take insurance or not, and it like it kind of trickles down to these other pieces. But yeah, I think even

maybe a broader umbrella of that is things like people pleasing or

these like personal pieces that you bring in to your business that then affect your ability to make business decisions. So for me, like people pleasing is a big one. I’m also super sensitive. So when I’m having these conversations of, hey, did you get my email that my fee’s increasing next year? And I’m just waiting for them to be like, yeah, what the hell? Right? Like,

Amanda Buduris (17:24)
No.

Katie (17:25)
never once has that ever happened. I think the worst response I’ve ever gotten was,

Really? And

Amanda Buduris (17:32)
Mm.

Katie (17:33)
I’m like, you know, it just yeah, that there it is, right? So but I think being a sensitive people pleaser, a high achiever, right? All these like different personal identities that come in also make all of this so much harder.

’cause

Amanda Buduris (17:50)
Yes.

Katie (17:50)
if I’m not paying attention to that, then those parts of me are at the wheel and they’re like, I I want my thi my clients to like me, so I just won’t bother making these changes that I know I need to make.

Amanda Buduris (18:05)
Yes. And funnily enough, I think that kind of like semi-disappointed response or the other response I hear most commonly when a therapist is like, I told my clients that I was raising my fee is like, good for you, you deserve it. Or like, I was wondering

Katie (18:19)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (18:20)
when you were gonna do it. Like clients usually, if you have a pretty good rapport with them, like they celebrate that. And if nothing else, like they understand, like.

I was just dropping off my car for service this morning. And it was like, by the way, moving forward, all credit card payments are now incurring that 3% processing fee. Like businesses make business decisions. And like again, a private practice is a business. And I think clients also just have a lot more ability to understand if we’re making a business decision and don’t take it entirely personally. Like Katie’s just trying to squeeze another five bucks out of me. It’s just like, yeah, everything’s getting more expensive these days. Like.

Katie (18:59)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (19:00)
most people

are I don’t know if forgiving is the right word, but at least a little bit more understanding than I think we give them credit for.

Katie (19:06)
Yeah, I get a lot of you gotta do what you gotta do responses. And

Amanda Buduris (19:09)
Yep. Yep.

Katie (19:10)
so there’s a small voice in my head that’s like, They weren’t enthusiastic, are they harboring something

Amanda Buduris (19:15)
Ha ha ha.

Katie (19:16)
against me? Right. But like the majority of my brain knows, like, no, that’s a that’s a fair response. Like, I probably would feel the same, right? Like everything’s expensive, everything’s going up, and we all have to survive. So yeah, it’s I don’t know, I think also

there’s a lot of like dis discussion, and maybe this is mostly on social media, about like therapy or therapists being scammy. and that’s one that that’s a message that has gotten a brain worm in me before of like, if I’m offering certain things, like am I being bad because I am taking advantage or whatever. and I don’t think like our

Clients would stick around if that were the case. You know, like

Amanda Buduris (20:05)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (20:06)
if I told them, hey, my fee’s gonna be this in next year, and they were like, Well, you’re just trying to wring money out of me, right? Like, then I feel like that’s would say more to the type of work we’ve been doing or the rapport that we don’t have,

Amanda Buduris (20:22)
Yes.

Katie (20:22)
or that’s poking a button for them and now we need to do work around it. So

Amanda Buduris (20:27)
Yes.

Katie (20:28)
I often find it’s not really personal.

Amanda Buduris (20:30)
Yeah.

Katie (20:31)
So

Amanda Buduris (20:31)
Yeah. Cause again, you you said that piece earlier of like, you know, in general, it’s just everything is clinical content that we can be processing, like both with our clients as well as perhaps in our own therapy of why are these emotional barriers come yeah, emotional blocks or barriers coming up, like regardless of I know the website stuff, I know the SEO stuff, I know what I should be doing, like.

You can do that all day long. You can keep learning and learning and learning. But if you can’t face the thing that makes you anxious, even if you need it, if you can’t ever consider putting yourself first, like, yeah, that there’s work to be done there. And specifically, I’m curious for you too, as someone who has been coached, as someone who’s been in therapy, is a therapist, provides coaching. Like, where do you see the difference between

emotional blocks that come up for us as therapists and like what is maybe better served in therapy versus what is better served in being coached through emotional blocks.

Katie (21:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think if the block is something childhood related, right, like that’s probably beneficial in therapy. Doesn’t mean you we

Amanda Buduris (21:47)
Sure.

Katie (21:48)
can’t talk about that in relation to how you’re showing up in your business. But I I think things that are untouched trauma or just yeah, like things that

maybe you have yet to process in therapy should start there. And then if you have an idea of what that means for you already, like potentially coaching could work. Like so for me, right, I’ve done so much inner child work and stuff around people pleasing. So it’s old hat for me at this point. Like I don’t feel like I need to spend a ton of time in therapy on it. But every time I work on my business, it gets poked at.

So it’s now I’m looking at that through the lens of, there’s my high achiever coming out again. How do I calm her down so that I not everything feels like I’m failing or nobody’s gonna like this? Or, you know, let’s just throw in the towel even though it’s only been a month kind

of thing, you know. So it

Amanda Buduris (22:50)
Yeah.

Katie (22:53)
it helps me to have done the therapy work already.

to address that sooner in my business stuff. Prior to have got in gotten coaching, I was unaware of that. So I was like, I know I f I’m feeling guilt or shame about things, but I don’t know why. I don’t know how to deal with it. I can’t even imagine myself in these different parts and how do I talk to them and all that stuff. So it was helpful to get the therapy around that first and then do the business coaching after.

Amanda Buduris (23:29)
Yeah, I agree. Cause again, like as therapists, we know that. We know that there are time and spaces where people need slowing down and more exploration. And even as therapists, like all therapists do a little bit of coaching anyway. We may not call it that, but we’re giving ideas of what have you tried this or have you done that? What happened when you did that? And so for me, like all the childhood work I’ve done in my therapy, and I’ve told my therapist, you have job security because man, we have so much more work to do.

It’s it’s always different though when I talk about feelings of insecurity or feeling like I haven’t got a ton of stuff around visibility, which is so funny as someone who’s so visible. So I

Katie (24:12)
Hmm.

Amanda Buduris (24:12)
talk about that a lot with my therapist, but how I talk about it with my therapist is different than how I talk about it with my coach because I can acknowledge this is really hard for me. I’m having a hard time doing this. Some of my stuff is getting poked at. And with my coach, I get walked through.

Okay, so then like what do you want to do with that? Like we do that. Whereas my therapist is like, and let’s go back to five-year-old Amanda and what is she worrying about and sit with her? And yes, we do a lot of IFS work too. So they serve different functions and purposes. And I can tell when I’m in a therapy session sometimes and I’m like, I just want to be worked through this block. I don’t want to sit with this part, and that’s my whole other stuff too. I’ve got a lot of protective parts who don’t want to do that work. but I can tell like

just doing the processing is not enough for a business owner’s sake. Like I also need to know like, okay, but what do I do to move forward? What can I, how can I acknowledge this part and this feeling and still move forward? So again, like, yes, working on website, marketing, whatever that is, and making decisions around, yeah, it might be scary to raise your fee or stop seeing clients on the weekend or whatever it is. And can you do it anyway?

and process what’s coming up as you’re scared in doing that. Like both definitely I think have a really valuable place for someone who’s struggling with the guilt and the shame especially.

Katie (25:37)
Yeah, and that’s something I’m honest with too. Like when I do discovery calls with therapists, like if it’s feeling like therapy would be the better option, like I’m pretty clear about that.

because I think there’s a way to balance those things as a business coach, right? Like I don’t want to completely ignore if someone’s telling me there’s a block coming up for me here, I don’t wanna come I don’t wanna ignore it and be like, Okay, well just move through that and do this thing. Like I wanna tend to it with you. but if it’s feeling like maybe you’re needing more of that depth work, then I think it’s fair to be honest about that. So

Amanda Buduris (26:17)
100%. Yeah. Yeah. Cause certainly again, what coaches can’t do is therapy. And so even though you are a therapist

Katie (26:23)
Totally.

Amanda Buduris (26:24)
and a coach and you coach therapists, you’re not trying to do therapy with therapists, because

Katie (26:29)
Yes.

Amanda Buduris (26:30)
there is that fine lurk. And again, I think it’s I think a lot of people who are trying to add on coaching again get too much in like the extremes and the black and white around like, well, I can’t touch any emotion. Like it has to be all technical and logistical. And and sometimes I do have to go to my coach and say,

I’m gonna talk about this in therapy. I know I’ve got stuff to work on with you. I really need to focus on again the strategy of how do I work my way through this. And sometimes we still acknowledge emotion that it’s there and know that we have a place to talk about it. So yeah.

Katie (27:00)
Yeah. I

I mean, I think I’ve shared this in the in the cohort, but I was working with a networking coach once and so much of that type of work was him just telling me, like, do this. And the reason I booked with him to begin with was because of his kind of like he was very good at that. I I don’t know what to call it.

I listened when he talked, right? So I was like, cool, I wanna learn that, right? it’s kind of that, I wanna learn that audacity, right? So I went

Amanda Buduris (27:31)
Yes.

Katie (27:32)
to him for that, but every time we met, it was more of here’s what worked for he would say, here’s what worked for me, go do that. And

Amanda Buduris (27:41)
Mm.

Katie (27:42)
and I would and it would feel uncomfortable, or I wouldn’t and I’d come back and report that I didn’t do it. And we never really addressed why I was avoiding it.

And the reason I was avoiding it is because I don’t like networking. I don’t want to book five calls a week with new therapists and to cross my fingers and hope you send me clients. Like that all feels weird to me and it’s exhausting. And I would much rather meet like once in a group of people and I don’t know, right? It was just not serving the point I needed. So, but we never addressed that part. We never addressed the

vulnerability of it or the visibility or the like I why can’t you bake cookies and go take them to an office? Like what’s the block there? Like and so I feel like it maybe if we would have dived into that, that I might have had a better experience of trying that networking stuff. But it just it yeah, it was very much like this is not working for me. So I did end it. And even that took a bit for me to be like

This isn’t feeling like a good fit, but now I have to tell him I wanna quit. And like that was hard too, but I did it. So Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (28:54)
Right. Yes. Yes.

Katie (28:56)
But there was so much of me that just wanted to avoid everything. And if I would have listened to the voice that was telling me, You should just push through versus the voice that was telling me, This actually doesn’t feel right, then I would have been miserable and I would have kept paying for coaching that I didn’t like. So

Amanda Buduris (29:15)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think again is a really good parallel too. Like if a therapy client really does feel like I’m just in too much pain and this is not helping, like they are gonna generally make the decision to, you know, whether they ghost us or whether they say, it’s not a good fit, it’s not working out, or things change, like again, we can trust that they will make the decision that’s right for them too.

Katie (29:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (29:38)
Like our clients are autonomous beings and we as therapists and business owners are autonomous beings and

At the end of the day, something has to support us in the ways that we need supporting. And

Katie (29:49)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (29:50)
I agree with you every time I’ve done a program that is just about, you know, the strategy. It’s helpful for learning the strategy, but if there’s not the space for talking through why is this hard for me and how do I, okay, this is what you recommend, and maybe this is best practices, but that doesn’t work for me. So then what are my options?

Like there’s been times where I’ve basically been told, like, well, that’s the option, that’s how you have to do it. If that’s how you want to grow and scale, it’s like, Okay, so now what? Like there has to be emotional personalization in anything

Katie (30:22)
Yes.

Amanda Buduris (30:23)
that we do, which again is why we love being therapists.

Katie (30:26)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think the majority of us probably have that part of why we enjoy being a therapist is the emotional component. And so if we’re ignoring that in our own experience of being a business owner, there’s a huge piece there of yourself that you’re just like avoiding or like shoving in a box and leaving somewhere, right? And so your business may never feel

right to you if you’re you continue to ignore those pieces.

Amanda Buduris (30:59)
And because a lot of us are, because a lot of us are high achieving and ambitious and stretched thin, whether that is, let me go through all these trainings and certifications or let me sign up for another SEO course or things like that, because we don’t have as much time as we might wish we should, or you know, wanted to, where do you think it’s most helpful for therapists to start slowing down to really check in with?

their emotions and how they’re doing and are they making decisions just because they think they should be and that’s what others are doing or they don’t know if they’re allowed to versus am I making decisions for myself? That was a really long question. How do you think people find the time to do it?

Katie (31:44)
The first thought that came to mind was can you make time, whether that’s weekly, monthly, or whatever, to do like a business check-in day for yourself? I know sometimes people call these like CEO days, right? Where they just kind of explore the business side of things, but include the emotional components in that, right? So

Amanda Buduris (32:03)
Yes.

Katie (32:04)
to sit to s sit and slow down and think, okay, how am I feeling about my practice? How am I feeling about my schedule?

How’s my capacity? you know, I sent an email out to all my clients about fee increases. How am I feeling about that? Right? Like to just take some mindfulness, time to check in on some form of a consistent schedule would be helpful. I don’t always do that myself. I

Amanda Buduris (32:30)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (32:31)
very much just like hit the ground and run, and then I’m like, why is this not working? because I haven’t bothered to slow down.

Amanda Buduris (32:38)
Yes.

Katie (32:39)
And I think that’s helpful too with the new year, like, you know, we’re around the corner.

Amanda Buduris (32:44)
huh.

Katie (32:44)
to not just swing right into the new year, but to take the end of this year and slow down and consider what do you want next year to look like for your business? How do you want to feel next year? Do you want to feel at peace, at ease, like

You know, do you wanna feel productive? Do you wanna what’s the thing? And then what needs to happen in order to make that feeling exist?

Amanda Buduris (33:12)
Yeah, because I think too, like there’s a ton of different ways to hit any goal. Right. Like

Katie (33:17)
Mm.

Amanda Buduris (33:18)
I feel like so many people are like the 10K months or how to make a whatever amount in a month or in a year, but there are harder ways to do that. There are medium hard ways to do that. And there are relatively easier. There’s never like a super easy way, but there are easier ways to make that work, if that’s even your goal. So to be able to slow down and again ask yourself, what are my actual goals?

And what route do I want to choose for myself to reach those goals? Cause if you hate Instagram marketing, which I like doing for my coaching business, I hated doing it for my therapy business. But like if I said, well, that’s what I have to do, then I’m making my goal, that’s not my goal, harder,

Katie (33:59)
Right.

Amanda Buduris (34:00)
right? And so that’s why I stopped posting on my therapy account is it’s the hard I chose to let go of, especially because it wasn’t even working. So I like that idea of just like,

An end of year CEO day. And yes, monthly if you can, but maybe maybe quarterly if that feels more realistic for people too. But

Katie (34:16)
Sure. Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (34:18)
not just how the business is doing, but how am I feeling about what am I doing in the business and how do I want to feel differently? Like a lot of us, I think, are like, I just don’t want things to feel so bad or so scary or so feast or famine. But like outside of that, like I don’t know many therapists who intentionally put it as a goal of like,

I wanna feel excited. I wanna feel alignment. I wanna feel more ease. Like there’s also something to be said for what positive, like framed words

Katie (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (34:49)
are we, you know, setting up for ourselves?

Katie (34:52)
Yeah, and sometimes that’s the antidote, right? Is like if I’m feeling afraid of something, then what’s the opp like what’s the opposite of that and how do I get that then? ‘Cause

Amanda Buduris (35:02)
Yeah.

Katie (35:02)
that sometimes is an easier framework for getting there. It’s like, okay, I wanna feel less afraid, feels like, well, how the hell do I do that? But I want to feel more confident.

Okay, now I can think of these things need to be into p in place for me to feel that way. Right. So I do think it’s it’s so easy to get stuck in the negative. And

Amanda Buduris (35:27)
So easy.

Katie (35:28)
the positive positive parts of that actually might give you a better roadmap. So

Amanda Buduris (35:36)
Yeah, exactly. It’s easy to just want to avoid a bad thing, but how do we create a more desirable thing? Like is another path. And you know, it’s a whole different map that maybe we’ve not been looking at.

Katie (35:47)
Yeah. I mean, even with the coaching for on my end, like I’ve wanted to coach for so long. I absolutely love it. I do some of it with my supervisees. but again, that’s a space where like clinical work is the priority, right? So, so I can feel it. I don’t can’t even describe it, but there’s just something in my chest that’s like, this is where you should be going.

Amanda Buduris (36:08)
Ha ha ha.

Katie (36:09)
And then there’s times where the fear gets spinning and I feel like

This is too hard, or there’s something about avoiding like building another branch of something

Amanda Buduris (36:21)
Mm-hmm.

Katie (36:22)
that makes me just want to avoid it and throw in the towel. And I have to slow down and remind myself, like, okay, but how do you when you think about mentoring therapists, how do you feel about it? And when I feel that warmth again in my chest, I’m like, okay, that tells me that that’s that’s more important than the fear that’s telling me this is taking too long or this is hard, or

the millions of worst case scenarios I can come up with. so I do think there’s something important to that slowdow process and the checking in with your with your body about, you know, ’cause if it was that if I didn’t have that and it was like, no, actually, internally I also feel like this sucks, then that

Amanda Buduris (37:04)
No.

Katie (37:05)
would tell me to not bother with it then. So.

Amanda Buduris (37:07)
Right. Yes,

exactly. If anyone listening is doing something that they think sucks, that is a great sign to stop doing that thing that sucks like as much

Katie (37:16)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (37:16)
as possible, as soon as possible. Because yeah, again, the the world is hard enough as it is always, and especially these days. And, you know, we do have some choice in who we surround ourselves with and where we’re focusing attention. And I think the more that we can just let go of the things that we

Don’t want to do things that we don’t need to do and look towards, you know, that it’s not to say that working on the things you want isn’t gonna have fear, you’re not gonna be scared or have imposter syndrome or some guilt or shame, but you can still hold those feelings, work through those feelings and move towards that end goal of really wanting to feel good, not just with your business, but also your life.

Katie (37:57)
Yeah. Yeah. And not wasting time on things that don’t feel that

Yeah, that don’t feel like the right decision. Like I could see so many of the high achievers out there being like, Well just push through, but don’t. Like that’s it’s a waste of time if you don’t have something burning inside you that’s like, This is the path, right? Like,

Amanda Buduris (38:20)
Yes. Yes.

Katie (38:21)
yeah, in theory, if it makes you more money, great, but if you’re burnt out and you hate it along the way, is it actually worth it? Probably not.

Amanda Buduris (38:29)
Hmm.

Katie (38:29)
So

Amanda Buduris (38:30)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, again, it’s very clear how passionate you are about this and you embracing some of your fear, some of your can I do this? Can I make this work? Will you tell the people who that this is resonating with the offer that you are putting together, the way that you want to work with therapists?

Katie (38:48)
Yes.

Yeah. So I’ve created a coaching program called Built Without Guilt. it’s a small co cohort style program about six to eight therapists. that will be I think the first day of that will be November ninth. and it’s a six-month program where we

Do what we’ve been talking about of trying to find a balance of implementing strategy in the areas where you are struggling or lost or confused in while also exploring the emotional barriers that are preventing you from doing the thing. Right. So it’s it’s looking at how how to actually help push you, well not push you, but encourage you through

Amanda Buduris (39:35)
Ha ha ha.

Katie (39:36)
the emotional guilt around fee stuff versus like, well, just

throw on your website that you charge three fifty, right? Like

Amanda Buduris (39:44)
Right.

Katie (39:45)
so it’s it’s definitely implementing strategy, but also like how can how can I and the cohort emotionally support you through that process. So

Amanda Buduris (39:54)
Because you said that earlier of like who you surround yourself with is everything. And I think that’s I think a lot of people hear the whole like your net worth is in your network thing. And I’ve been, I don’t know why, getting all these suggested follows of like people who are like, I sat in the room with millionaires and billionaires, and here’s what I’m learning. I’m like, you don’t quite need to be like that kind of net

Katie (40:14)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (40:15)
worth in your network situation. But to like it’s almost like a lot of these group programs, when done well, is it’s very therapeutic.

For people like to be able to be with others who are where you are, not people who are just like, it’s so easy to raise your rate to 350. Why haven’t you done that already? Like, okay, talk about guilt and shame. Like that’s not what we’re trying to put together. We’re trying to create almost like a therapeutic group space that is both.

Katie (40:41)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (40:42)
It is business oriented. It will help you personally and it also help professionally. And again, that just goes round and round and round. So I know that you will do a great job with those lucky people who sign up.

So I’m excited to hear how that goes for you. But other than that, can you Yeah, go ahead.

Katie (40:54)
Yes. I I also

wanted to say too, because it’s October already, which is crazy,

Amanda Buduris (41:01)
I know.

Katie (41:01)
I am offering for those who do a discovery call and decide to book the group prior to November a an additional one to one meeting with me. That’s not it’s the bonus of signing up early. So the group is a mix of group

month or weekly group calls and then monthly one to one calls. And so if you book with me before the end of the month, then you get an additional one to one. So yeah.

Amanda Buduris (41:31)
super, super valuable. And that’s what I continue

Katie (41:33)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (41:33)
to hear from people too, is like the one-to-one is where a lot of the magic happens. A lot of the magic happens in a group and there’s some a lot of people feel safer in a one-to-one space too. So to be able to offer that

Katie (41:43)
Totally. Well,

Amanda Buduris (41:45)
is super generous.

Katie (41:46)
yeah, and I can attest to that too. It’s like when I’m in a one to one space similar to lead a therapist, right? It’s like, I can cry here. Okay. you know,

Amanda Buduris (41:51)
Yeah. Yes. Exactly.

Katie (41:55)
it’s like, yeah, there’s there’s the container just feels nice to have someone who’s like who cares about your business and cares about you and can kind of hold all that with you. So yeah.

Amanda Buduris (42:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. So we will make sure that we link all of your contact information in the show notes so that people can check you out on is Instagram the best way to connect with you or reach out on your website?

Katie (42:17)
Yeah, there’s Instagram, probably would be easiest. And then yeah, I’ve got I can give you a website link for the the program itself, so yeah.

Amanda Buduris (42:28)
Perfect. Sounds great.

Well, thanks so much for sharing about this topic. I agree with you. It’s not just the strategy and the logistics. Like we have to pay attention to the emotion too. And we know that as therapists, and sometimes we forget it. So thank you for bringing that reminder into this space today.

Katie (42:44)
Yes. Yeah. Thank you again for having me and I’m excited to hear from folks.

Amanda Buduris (42:49)
Thanks, Katie. Thanks everyone for listening in. I will talk with you next week.