Happy, Healthy, & Wealthy Therapists | Ep 58: Building a Practice That Funds the Life You Actually Want

Released: 9/25/2026

Show Notes:

Sandra Killebrew is a couples therapist in Tacoma who specializes in high conflict couples, runs therapy intensives, and has been thinking about financial independence and early retirement since before she even finished grad school. In this conversation, she and Amanda get into what it actually looks like to build something worth having, including a year of posting on Instagram with almost no results before one reel changed everything, the healthy fear that goes into locking yourself in a room with a high conflict couple for hours, and why wanting to quit is not the same thing as actually quitting. This one is honest, a little unfiltered, and a good reminder that the behind the scenes of any success story is almost always longer and messier than it looks from the outside.

About Sandra:

Sandra Killibrew is a highly ambitious premium fee private practice therapist in Tacoma, Washington. She specializes in working with high-conflict couples and doing couples intensives and has become known for her direct, opinionated views on Instagram, where her following has taken off since June, growing from less than 300 to almost 10,000 followers. She’s built her practice from the ground up over the past three and a half years with one goal in mind: FIRE (which if you don’t know what that is, it’s financial independence, retire early), so that she can meditate as much as she wants. She’s all about building a practice around the life you want and trying to maintain work-life balance while chasing your dreams.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. A healthy amount of fear going into couples intensives is not a red flag but a sign that you actually care about the stakes involved, and the therapists who thrive in that format pair that fear with genuine confidence in their ability to problem-solve their way through anything the room brings.
2. Overnight success almost never is: what looks like a viral moment or fast growth from the outside is almost always built on years of unglamorous repetition, failed attempts in other arenas, and a refusal to quit before the results showed up.
3. The clearest path through the hardest parts of building a private practice or any business is having something you want badly enough that the difficulty stops being a reason to quit and starts being just another problem to solve.

Connect with Sandra:

• Follow on Instagram: @sandra.killebrew.lmft
• Freebie: How to Get Your PSE to STFU

Connect with Amanda:

• Follow on Instagram: @amandakbcoaching
• Check out the Amanda KB

Resources & Links:

• This episode is sponsored by:
  • Alma – learn more here
  • Jane – use code: AMANDA2MO for a 2-month grace period
• Therapy Intensives Academy – use code HHWPOD250 as a podcast listener to get $250 off at checkout: https://amandakbcoaching.com/therapy-intensives-academy
• Apply now for the next round of the Happy, Healthy, & Wealthy Mastermind: https://amandakbcoaching.com/mastermind
• Free Training: 3 Steps to Booking Your First Therapy Intensive: https://www.amanda-kb-coaching.com/ewo-registration-organic
• Free Guide: 3 Steps to Double Your Income: https://www.amanda-kb-coaching.com/vsl-opt-in

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Just a quick heads up, everything I share in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It’s not legal advice, financial advice, or tax advice. Every practice and every state has its own rules. So if you’re wondering how something applies to your situation, make sure to check in with an attorney, accountant, or another qualified professional who can give you guidance based on your specific circumstances.

Transcript:

Amanda Buduris (00:00)
Hi, Sandra. Welcome to the show.

Sandra (00:02)
Hey. Thanks for having me.

Amanda Buduris (00:05)
Yeah, I’m super excited about all the things we’re gonna talk about. part of what we were just talking about before recording is that you and I have kind of been familiar with each other online for a while and we’ve commented on each other’s stuff and we support one another. But now I’m excited to talk more about that today. Before we dive into anything, do you wanna give the listeners who may not be aware of you a quick intro to who you are, what your practice is about, what you do?

Sandra (00:32)
Yeah, sure. I’m I would call myself primarily a couples therapist. I see my clients online and in person. I’m in Tacoma, Washington. graduated with my masters in twenty twenty. I’m I’m not brand new to having a private practice, but still kind of on the newer ish side, I guess. Having it for I think like three and a half years or something.

and yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what else to share. But yeah, I I have an Instagram account and that has

Amanda Buduris (01:06)
Ha ha.

Sandra (01:07)
blown up over the past few months and so I’m sure we’re probably gonna be talking about that too, but that’s a little bit about me.

Amanda Buduris (01:15)
Yeah, yeah. With doing couples work, part of what you do, and it sounds like a large part of what you do is working with high conflict couples specifically. And I know lots of couples therapists, well, first of all, lots of therapists are terrified of couples therapy work. So there’s already not

Sandra (01:31)
Whoa

Amanda Buduris (01:32)
enough of us doing couples therapy work. But then even of couples therapists, a lot of people are like, I don’t want high conflict couples. Like it’s almost even harder to find someone who wants to work with them. So what

What do you like about that specific niche? Why did you choose to market to them?

Sandra (01:50)
It was in part a decision based in my interests and also it was a strategic decision too. and like if you’re gonna advertise yourself as a high conflict couples therapist, I think you have to be prepared to have a caseload full of high conflict couples, and so I think that holds a lot of people back from

advertising for it. so it was very like intentional that I’m like, okay, like if I put myself out there for this, I’m gonna get a lot of this. I may like only get this. so I was thoughtful about it. but it also started in in grad school. like my first

of my first few I I immediately knew I was gonna do couples therapy and so I think I don’t know like maybe half my caseload or something was couples. and I I had a pretty heavy couples caseload I think by the end of my internship and I just stumbled upon like while talking to my supervisor being like realizing that I was seeing like just quite a few high conflict couples right off the bat.

And I just remember saying like at some point in during supervision to my supervisor, like, maybe I wanna work with high conflict couples. Like I had that like I already had that at that point in time. So,

Yeah, I’m I’m just like a glutton for like really difficult, complicated, like, give me something and then I’m gonna find a way to make it a million times harder and an even bigger challenge and then I’m gonna go be like, and now I’m gonna go conquer that challenge and I’m gonna tackle it. And so that’s it yeah, it’s a it’s a mixture of things.

Amanda Buduris (03:43)
I love that. Yeah, because it is I don’t I don’t advertise myself as someone who works with high conflict couples, but I do advertise, you know, we work on attachment trauma, we work on one or both partners has CPTSD, and inherently a lot of times it means people have difficulty regulating their emotions. And sometimes high conflict moments happen, even if that’s not their typical pattern. So

Sandra (04:06)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (04:06)
it is a it is a unique challenge, even if you have a, you know, s

kind of framework that you’re grounded in of how you work with them. So you primarily work with this type of couple and then you do a therapy intensives with these couples. How do you find the intensives are? Because I’ve even had couples ask me, you know, more time sounds great, but isn’t that just the potential for more dysregulation? And won’t we just have lots of big conflict? So what does that typically look like for you to focus in the intensive form?

Sandra (04:41)
sometimes it sucks. Not gonna lie. Like I think that people who advertise for doing intensives should be scared. not like like I’m not gonna do it, but like I think they’re like a healthy amount of like fear or anxiety. I think there’s a good amount, like it’s good to have some. because you’re locked in, right?

and like knowing that you’re locking yourself in with iconflict couple, like there should be a healthy amount of fear and anxiety there too, right? Otherwise you’re not with like your real human experience. So yeah, I mean sometimes it absolutely sucks and sometimes it’s awesome.

It probably sucks more often than not. But

Amanda Buduris (05:29)
Ha ha ha.

Sandra (05:30)
like the first the first several hours are the worst, right? And then and then it gets better, usually. and in terms of like the fears that couples have about yeah, like so you’re giving us more time, so does that just mean we’re gonna argue for five hours instead of one?

I’m like, well, no, I mean, if we’re if we’re doing this right, that’s not gonna happen. That time allows us to figure out what works and what doesn’t work.

With more time, we can be more we can spend more time tuning into your nervous system and troubleshooting what is and isn’t gonna work. It doesn’t mean that we’re pushing you like the whole time. Actually, an intensive, at least for me, typically means like more relaxation for everybody, but also at the same time, a higher pressure in a good way, a higher pressure.

Of, like, if you’re not gonna figure this out doing like a one or a two-day intensive, when the fuck are you?

Amanda Buduris (06:49)
Yeah.

Sandra (06:51)
And that’s I that’s one of the things I love the most about intensives, specifically for couples, is I’m like, if you’re paying me thousands of dollars and you got a babysitter and you canceled your weekend plans and you’re not doing something fun this week and you’re doing therapy.

Amanda Buduris (07:10)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (07:11)
If this is and and by the way, like you’re about to lose your marriage, and that means that you’re not gonna have full access to your kids.

And your finances are fucked. Like, if that’s not enough to motivate you to change, nothing will ever. And so at least you know, right? So.

Amanda Buduris (07:33)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I I appreciate you saying like, number one, you should kind of be scared about this, because I think there’s a difference between you should feel overall confident in your work and I don’t know a single therapist who doesn’t have a little bit of fear going into intensives, whether it’s because there is just like no guarantee. We don’t know how it’s gonna work, but I think that the fear ultimately shows that like you do care and you are being

mindful and you want to be intentional and all intensive work. Like, yes, it’s literally intensive in terms of the time, but it’s also intensive emotional labor for you as a therapist.

Sandra (08:12)
It’s intense.

Amanda Buduris (08:14)
Yeah. I am usually, even if an intensive goes really well with a couple, like we have great conversations and insights and they make movement. Like I’m still fucking exhausted at the end of it, but it’s always worth it. And a lot of what makes it worth

Sandra (08:29)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (08:29)
it is okay, well,

fee that I charged was worth my time on a weekend and I was very intentional and I didn’t let them play out their pattern. So yeah, like a good amount of fear and anxiety is is healthy. And yes, you need to know ultimately what you’re doing and you need to show up for the work that basically you’ve I don’t want to say like promised or guaranteed, but you need to do your part of, you know, the intensive kind of like agreement.

Sandra (08:56)
Yeah, I mean like I think like yeah, there should be like a kind of a healthy amount of fear, anxiety, right? ‘Cause like, you know, things are on the line when people invest at this level, they they really want help and they’re really hoping that something different, you know, like happens. And I don’t know, like I think once you’re dead to your work as a therapist, like why are you doing it anymore? Like

Amanda Buduris (09:19)
Yes.

Sandra (09:20)
I don’t know, like I either like either you’re just not that invested anymore or like you’re emotionally numbed out or like it’s not interesting to you anymore. So maybe it’s not right for you. Like if there isn’t, you know, something you’re excited about or something you’re a little nervous about, like you’re alive as a human. but yeah, like on the other hand, right, we all I mean, I think many probably every therapist is familiar with imposter syndrome. so

like if you don’t have a you know, a way to handle your anxiety, like in a healthy way, like if you don’t have some like confidence and competence, right? And I think even like a little bit of ego is helpful for this to like get you to take

Amanda Buduris (10:02)
Mm.

Sandra (10:03)
the risk, to get you to go in there and to tell yourself like I’m like

I’m gonna figure this out. There’s no for at least for me, I’m confident in the fact that not that I’m gonna get it right all the time, but more like I’m a person of integrity, like I care, like I’m not gonna be an asshole and also

Amanda Buduris (10:22)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (10:22)
like and I’m invested in myself and like my own awareness and I do that work.

Like and yeah, I’m providing something that I really care about and like a really high value. So I’m never gonna leave anyone hanging. And I’m a really fucking good problem solver. Like to the point

Amanda Buduris (10:38)
Yeah.

Sandra (10:38)
of like that I think that’s a place where like me having a lot of ego is really amazing because it’s not like I’m the best. I’m more like there’s no problem that I can’t solve if I put

Amanda Buduris (10:49)
Mm.

Sandra (10:50)
my mind to it. And this container means I have so much time to calmly look at what these issues.

are and to troubleshoot and to figure it out and to like tinker. So that kind of confidence in myself I think really helps me

do it helped me start doing intensives and when people are like, How do you do it? That’s so much aren’t you worried that you’re gonna like mess up or it’s gonna be a total, you know, shit show. And I’m like, I mean, yeah, I don’t know. I’ve I feel like I’m not a couples therapist worth their salt if like I can’t go in there and be like, give myself time to figure it out, right? And if you know what I mean. I’m not yeah. Anyways, that’s just my approach of like

It’s just problem solving, right? It’s just troubleshooting,

Amanda Buduris (11:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sandra (11:36)
problem solving, tinkering, and you just need persistence and like continuous attempts and like that’s pretty much it. There’s no special magic.

Amanda Buduris (11:48)
Yes. Yes.

Which I think like almost

Sandra (11:52)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Buduris (11:52)
every therapist I know, like we are very inquisitive. We are all problem solvers. We all want to understand what happened, why, how did that connect to that thing? Like we all like that work because it it is creative and it’s energizing. And I think the people, the therapists who are seeing too many clients, the ones who are burning out, they’re the ones who are feeling

less creative. They’re the ones who are

Sandra (12:19)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (12:19)
feeling like who will like straight up acknowledge, like, yeah, I can of Am like playing my C game and phoning it in and like just trying to get through the day. And then they see intensives as a way to like, okay, maybe this is the way out. I see less clients, I charge more money. And maybe that’s great. But I think some of the pieces that they don’t realize they have to tend to is like, how do you get

your creativity and your confidence and almost like your play back when you’re burnt out. So what did that look like for you?

Sandra (12:51)
Yeah, I mean

my god, I feel like well maybe it’s not true anymore, but burnout has been top of mind and body for me for years, like since the very, very, very beginning. since my internship. Like I felt I I’m pretty sure I felt burned out,

near the end of my grad school internship and I was aware of that and I was like, I’m gonna take a break after graduating and that was my plan. And I did make concrete plans for that and then COVID happened. So I had to cancel my plans because COVID wrecked them so I went immediately into work. But the Yeah, I mean I think my

I don’t know, I think like my emotional sensitivity as a person coupled with like my like my achieving kind of personality makes me prone to burnout. And so and then I think that’s just like

worse as a therapist. Like I think I would I would probably struggle with this whatever I was doing because it’s it’s the way that I exist. It’s like what I do to myself. It’s my patterns. but the whole like therapy thing makes it I think a billion times harder. You know, I look for a challenge, I find it somehow

Amanda Buduris (14:34)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (14:36)
but yeah, burnout has always been a thing. I’ve always been attending to it. I don’t even know if I can define strictly this is burnout, this isn’t burnout. I feel like I just like am paying attention to the like where I am on my own spectrum and I think things have they’ve gotten better for me over time, but it has been I mean it has been a long, like massive journey.

There’s never a time working as a therapist where I’m like not like thinking about that or paying attention to that or like trying to like problem solve something like in a bigger way or like kind of in a smaller way in the sort of the daily habit kind of a realm and it’s something I’m always taking care of. I don’t like sit back and relax on the couch and I’m like, like I’m not at risk at burnout. I feel like if I don’t pay attention then that’s when it’s gonna happen.

Amanda Buduris (15:35)
Mm-hmm. Yes, especially for a highly ambitious person who you’re like, great, there’s white space and I’ve got all this stuff on my mind. Like it’s so easy to create work for yourself and to just do more. Yes.

Sandra (15:47)
That’s my one of my biggest problems.

Amanda Buduris (15:52)
A million percent. Same.

Sandra (15:55)
But on the other hand, then you get like these like amazing businesses where you’re like totally

Amanda Buduris (15:59)
Yes.

Sandra (16:00)
kicking ass, right? And so I d I don’t know, like I mean if I’m gonna have like the bad stuff, then I wanna have the good stuff too.

Amanda Buduris (16:09)
Exactly. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. So like keeping burnout top of mind. You also have another goal of retiring early that it sounds like is informing a lot of what you do and how you do that. So when did retiring early and having that more financial independence, when did that start to become a priority? Was it also since grad school or more recent?

Sandra (16:31)
yeah. It that’s been like I’m gonna I’m gonna try to give like maybe the medium answer because literally I could s like I could spend hours talking about it and I could tie in like my

Amanda Buduris (16:40)
Yeah.

Sandra (16:40)
whole life journey. Like

Amanda Buduris (16:43)
yeah.

Sandra (16:44)
it goes really deep for me, but I like you know the origins of it started before becoming a therapist, like I don’t when I was like twenty I think when I was twenty-three.

is when I learned the term passive income, like before it was like on everybody’s minds basically. and I was like, what’s that? And then I decided that I wanted to build a real estate empire. And that

Amanda Buduris (17:12)
Mm.

Sandra (17:13)
was like one of my, you know, earlier ideas. And so I started into that and I got my realtor’s license. Long story short, it wasn’t for me. I didn’t build a real estate empire. But

Amanda Buduris (17:25)
Yeah.

Sandra (17:26)
like

Like I was yeah, I was interested in passive income and I was interested in building a business mm, like I don’t know, I guess more than ten years ago at this point and kind of struck out there, but eventually came back around to it, getting licensed as a therapist and yeah, and I don’t know like when I learned what fire

was so for people who don’t know it’s it mean the it’s an acronym for financial independence retire early and so what happens is like a lot of people who reach fire become financially independent and some of them choose to retire early but some of them continue to keep working. So there’s there’s a whole fire world out there which I’ve got into somewhat. yeah but basically

yeah, I was interested in that before becoming a therapist. And then I don’t know, like things just kind of came together, like in the way that the universe brings things together, and then suddenly suddenly you’re like, This situation was perfect. I feel like I’ve been working towards this my whole life, but I didn’t even realize it. And now it’s

Amanda Buduris (18:38)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (18:39)
time. And so yeah, it just connected with my desire to build a life that would

where meditation and deep meditation would be the center of my life and everything would work around that. And that I figured out or like established that desire sometime maybe in grad school or sh shortly thereafter because I started meditating seriously, almost at the same time I started grad school. So I think I knew before I graduated that I was like, one day I wanna have a private practice and I want and I want

like my meditation practice to be like front and center and my business to work around that. And so basically like the meditation stuff, I connected with this fire thing and I was like, I want to have the freedom to be in deep meditation for months at a time one day. and to not have any financial responsibilities, nothing. And so then I was like

Okay, yeah, I don’t wanna work for the next five I sorry, I don’t wanna work for the next like ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty years. I was like, I wanna I wanna work. I’m really good at like focusing on that thing and getting that thing done. And then I wanna be financially independent and I wanna be able to throw kind of everything to the side, be as involved or as uninvolved as possible, and like basically sort of have all the benefits of

like being a householder, which means you’re not a monk or a nun. Like see earning money, right? Because I decided I wasn’t gonna go become a Buddhist nun essentially. So that’s what happened. I decided I wasn’t gonna become a nun.

Amanda Buduris (20:23)
Yeah.

Sandra (20:23)
And then I was like, so what’s the second best option? I can meditate

Amanda Buduris (20:26)
Uh-huh.

Sandra (20:27)
a lot, but that still means I need to be able to financially support myself because I’m not giving up all my belongings and going to live at a nunnery. So that means that in order to do that I have to have a big fucking pile of money. And so that’s how that all happened.

Amanda Buduris (20:39)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Which I think is it’s just very intentional and it’s thinking a lot in the future. Whereas I find a lot of therapists tend to think, you know, not day by day. I think that would be a little bit too dramatic, but almost like year by year of like, well, what do I want my fee to be this year? What do I want to make this year? And there’s so many who I’ve talked with therapists in their thirties, forties, fifties, and they’re like, I haven’t saved a single cent.

Towards retirement. Like I’m just kind of planning on working till I die. And they say it a little bit as a joke, but also like that kind of has to be serious too, if you aren’t essentially planning on a time where I just stop working. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Sandra (21:21)
Well that is your plan. If that’s what you’re doing, that is your plan. You’re following through on your plan. That’s your plan.

Amanda Buduris (21:29)
Yes. Yeah. Which I think just continues all of the burnout and the overworking, whether that is just in your therapy practice or the people who do pursue.

What other kind of forms of passive income are there? Can I sell digital products? Should I add coaching? Like it just creates all of this like frenetic energy because a lot of people are just thinking about right now and not the future. And it sounds like you’ve been thinking about future you and how to not just be a worker for a really long time. And I think that’s just that’s impressive and it’s it’s rare, unfortunately, in this field, especially when we’re thinking about how we help others with their futures, but we’re not doing a lot of that for ourselves.

Sandra (22:08)
Yeah. I mean yeah, yes. I when I was in grad school, I remember thinking before I graduated, like

There’s no way I could do I could just be a therapist and earn my income from being a therapist for the next twenty or thirty years. Like I already had in my mind like what feel would feel sustainable to me would be like working half my time as a therapist, and then I was like the other half the time, maybe I’m like writing books or teaching or something. I never thought that that would be sustainable for me. and

Yeah, I mean, since I’m I guess like such opposite personality from like the person who says that. and I’ve taken I think I’ve taken it like sort of even to the nth degree, right?

it’s it is really hard for me to imagine doing that in a joking way. Like if they’re serious about it, like cool, great, like good for you, if that works, right? But it’s hard for me to imagine doing that in a in a joking way just because that would feel I don’t know

Like for me that that would just feel like I’m not taking care of myself and I’m not taking my own well being seriously and I’m not thinking about my future and I’m not thinking about like how I wanna spend my days when I’m older and what kind of capacities I’m gonna have at that.

point.

That just would feel like self-neglect for me to to like do that and I would hate I for myself, I would hate to do that for myself. That just doesn’t like I wanna for me thinking about my future and and planning for it and thinking about my capacities and trying to constantly like make my life work for the person that I am feels really like the ways that I know how to care for myself.

Amanda Buduris (24:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which again, I think a lot of therapists, unfortunately, for whatever reason, and I’m sure there’s a million reasons, but a lot of us are not very good at putting ourselves first, especially when it comes to business decisions and business strategy. And when it comes to you and you thinking about like how do I protect my energy, how do I set myself up for the future? You mentioned

Instagram and kind of have the focus on that and trying to grow on that, but that’s also brought up a lot of its own shit. So what was the strategy or the hope around Instagram marketing and really just putting yourself out there?

Sandra (24:46)
None at first. No strata

Amanda Buduris (24:47)
Yeah.

Sandra (24:49)
I mean there there was a small one and that was simply that my business coach suggested to me I was very no, that’s exaggerated. I felt like my website could be doing more than it was, but I had invested over I think I had invested maybe about twelve thousand in and getting it like all everything done for me.

and I had it for a year and it was doing like what I originally intended it to do and then I wanted it to do more and it never just quite felt right. and I thought that I could do it better. but I also was like, Is that my ego talking? And also like I’d better be sure because I just spent twelve thousand dollars on this. if I go and I fuck it up, I’m like throwing away.

Away

a bunch of money. so she and I talked a lot about it and spent time like very intentionally looking at my website and me trying to articul articulate to her, like, I don’t know, this is what doesn’t feel right. And we landed on something and I was like, Yeah, okay, like that’s it. And then she was like, She was basically like Sandra, like.

Hold your horses here. like before you go and do something, maybe you should test out your ideas. And she was like, and this is what Instagram is great for. And so before she said any of like suggested this, I’m like, fuck Instagram, fucking hate social media. and then she was like, well, she was like, Instagram is a great, like, kind of sandbox to like test out ideas and kind of get reactions. And I was like, huh.

That’s interesting. And I was like, okay, I’ll do it. So like, I’ll do it. So I just created an account, like within a couple days, and I was like, I’m just gonna post stuff and I don’t know, something’s gonna happen. And

Amanda Buduris (26:44)
Ha ha

Sandra (26:45)
long story short, ended up going and rehaul overhauling my website anyways, even though she told me to wait. I didn’t wait.

Amanda Buduris (26:54)
Ha ha.

Sandra (26:55)
And

it ended up being really, really great. but don’t try this at home, folks.

Amanda Buduris (27:01)
huh.

Sandra (27:02)
Or be careful about it. And and so then I just set a goal for myself to like I was like post once a day for 90 days just to see what happens. And so I I did that more or less, like I probably posted like eight seventy-five, eighty times or something in 90 days, first 90 days. And then after that I just dropped off in my

like consistency with posting and and I had like less than three hundred followers and I was like I don’t really know what I’m doing here. Like I kind of felt like, I’m just kind of floating and then and then I was like, yeah, maybe I don’t maybe I don’t need any more. Like nothing’s really happening. Like I don’t know. and so I was kind of thinking about like maybe I just let this go about a year after I had started my account.

and then I made one post and it went viral and that’s the end of that.

Amanda Buduris (27:59)
Ha ha

ha.

Sandra (28:02)
I made that post in like literally fifteen minutes.

Amanda Buduris (28:06)
As it goes.

Sandra (28:07)
By the way, like I mean I’m I’m very open about this. I don’t script my videos. I

And like I’m not telling any of our listeners to take my advice here. I’m just being very open about like I’m someone who like basically thought social media is the devil and I still think there’s a lot of credence to that. but also it can do some pretty amazing things if you can like harness it. And that’s the side of social media that like I hadn’t seen and I hadn’t experienced. And I gotta say, once you start to experience that.

your mind will change about social

Amanda Buduris (28:48)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (28:49)
media and also all the emotional stuff it brings up. Like I I don’t know, I think it could either be like your worst nightmare or like your

Amanda Buduris (28:58)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (29:00)
biggest dream, you know?

Amanda Buduris (29:03)
Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s hard for a lot of therapists, myself included initially, of like number one, even our training as therapists is I don’t know that all of us, especially these days, are trained as like blink slate, don’t talk about yourself. But for those of us who are like, it’s not about me, it’s about the client, it’s already hard enough to put ourselves like front and center in some content, even though, right, essentially what we’re doing if you’re trying to promote your therapy practice is.

What does it look like when I talk? What are my opinions? What are my mannerisms? Because you’re hoping to form a little bit of like a relationship. So they reach out for consultation. They work with you and all that stuff. But I think a lot of therapists, especially outside of, I don’t know how the heck to record a reel. How do I add captions? Like outside of the technical lack of know-how, there is a lot of like emotional weight that’s put on how do the

How do the post perform? What if no one likes it? Is it that they don’t like me or did I just not choose the best hook? Like there’s a lot of things that come up as we start practicing with it for the first time. So what did that kick up for you and ultimately what helped you to continue posting, even if you weren’t seeing the results that you wanted?

Sandra (30:19)
I think for me like continuing was just knowing that

I need to expose myself this to a certain amount to even see how it feels and like I need to learn it a little bit before I make a decision. So I need to get like I need to give it a good trial. So that’s why my initial goal was just like ninety posts in ninety days. Cause I’m like, I need to get practice, I need to get repetition, I just need to do the dang thing and like see what happens and I’ll learn something along the way and I’ll give it a good trial and I’ll see how it is. so I mean I think if you’re

starting out with it, like I wouldn’t be making any goals or any intentions around a certain following or a certain this or a certain that and just be like I’m just gonna learn about this and see what happens and maybe even see if I like it. Like and see what I it inspires me to talk about or, you know, like make like make some friends. Like reach out to other therapists and just kinda explore, right?

but also I think what kept me going for as long as I did, which was kind of like, you know, a year with very minimal results, right? was just the fact that like, you know, building a

a successful business means that you have to be okay with doing things repeatedly for long periods of time with absolutely zero positive feedback. And for me, like there’s no there’s no

Fucking way in hell that I’m giving up on my goal. Like you will be prying that from my dead hands. For reals.

Amanda Buduris (32:07)
Mm.

Sandra (32:09)
There is nothing I am more motivated to do I’ve ever been more motivated to do in my entire life. Right? So, like, there’s no way I’m not reaching my goals. So for me, because of my really, really, really strong motivation, I’m like.

I’m

committed to figuring out doing it, whatever it takes. And that means locking in for like long periods of time. Not days, not weeks, like months, years of doing something and like maybe thinking you suck at it and being like

Well, depends on you know, you’re gonna get good at it if you keep doing it, nobody knows the timescale on which you will, but you will certainly get better at it, and you can’t fail at anything unless you give up.

Amanda Buduris (33:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

Sandra (33:04)
Or unless you’re dead. I’m like, there’s no way, like I’m not dead yet, so

Amanda Buduris (33:08)
Exactly. Yes. Yes. I think that is there’s a lot of things I don’t like about social media, but I do think, especially the more and more I hear people say all the time, like, my feed is just flooded with all these therapist coaches, all these marketing coaches. Like, I do think one of my least favorite things is how much some of the marketing content out there can make it feel like it’s supposed to be easy and like

Get these results in 10 days, get these results in 30 days. Like there is so much out there that says it’s supposed to be fast. And if it’s not fast, then you did something wrong and you might as well give up and pivot or drop it or whatever it is when it’s actually like, no, things take a while. Like good things take a while to build. And the number of times I’ve reiterated a program or decided to close a program or revamped a program, like it just it’s all based on time and

trying and putting myself out there even if no one wants it. I’ve had offers that I put out there that nobody wanted and yeah, it sucks, but it gave me information about, okay, so they don’t want that thing. So what else is it that they want instead of just I must suck and nobody wants to work with me in any way. That’s one way I could take it, but that’s why my therapist is well paid because we’ve done a lot of fucking work together. So

Sandra (34:26)
mean I think that arguably, people who like don’t know us as people and don’t have like a per more personal relationship with us could

guess or say that like, well, they’ve had like enormous success in like a short period of time. So what are you talking about? Like it means doing things like without positive feedback. And what do you mean it means taking a while? Because, you know, if you look at this thing that Amanda’s done or that Sandra’s done, like like they did it quickly or it happened quickly. What it I’m

I’m curious like what is your reaction to that idea? And like I think like a fair argument that one could make.

Amanda Buduris (35:15)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Because a lot of people especially ask me about like, what’s a realistic timeline for being successful with intensives? And I’m like, for me, it did take, I put it up on my website. I got my first inquiry in about 30 days, but I put a shit ton of work into my website a year prior to that to make it findable. And I also, I do not network. I hate it. It zaps all of my energy. So there’s

ways I could have probably made it work faster. And 30 days is still fast too. But I don’t like to give people just the it depends answer because obviously it does. And I think there’s just something to be said for the more people that take advantage of the multitude of options there are for therapists to do, like add intensives, add coaching, whatever it is. Yes, we are adding more options out there. So people need more time to

Especially a therapy client, they need more time to consider the options. Like when I was offering intensives, I think I was the only one in my area offering intensives, or at least had a website that was so easily findable that I was offering intensives. Nowadays, more people are doing it. So it’s not that there’s like more competition. I don’t want to call it that and dissuade anyone from putting themselves out there if they want to do that. But it is just a client journey is taking a little bit longer than it did in

2021, 2022, 2023, like they are being more discerning, especially in the economy today. So a lot of it is just if something’s still important to you, if you want to make intensives work, if you want to make a coaching business work, like, will it still be worth it to you if it takes time to build? Like I try not to give

Sandra (37:02)
I know.

Amanda Buduris (37:02)
anyone like a time guarantee, but like, well, will it be worth it if you don’t book it in 30 days? And if they’re like, no, then it’s like,

Okay, then we have a different problem we need solving for.

Sandra (37:11)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I but like I think that’s the thing is that, you know, you never know what

work someone has put in behind behind the scenes that seems directly related to the success you see with them or like is indirectly related like for example like I tried starting a business in real estate when I was twenty four or something and like failed at that failed right and

and like and it was scary i remember how scary it was doing that and i remembered that fear when i decided decided to start a business as a therapist and i and having tried in real estate helped me

when starting a business as a therapist. Because I remember what it felt like to like, you know, have a business. And then like once you have the business and it’s in existence, then at least for me, was this like moment of fuck, now where do I get the clients? And then being like, wait, how do I actually do this? And then, you know

sitting in an empty open house. Like, you know, I already had some exposure to putting it myself out there and offering something that people were not like immediately wanting. And then ultimately coming to the decision of like this isn’t for me and saying goodbye to that dream, like at that time.

And that experience helped me do what I’m doing today, but nobody would know about that and they might think like, she’s had this like massive success and like it just, you know, came to her. But I think on the other like behind the scenes, like yeah, we’re like

very driven and motivated people and we also work like really, really hard. And I think being, you know, successful is just just being willing to fail more than anybody else around you and to do it publicly. And like the more you

Amanda Buduris (39:46)
Yes.

Sandra (39:47)
fail and the more public the failures are and the more often you fail publicly, the more successful

Amanda Buduris (39:52)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (39:53)
you will become, which is why I’m like, yeah, I’m

in

a way like don’t like visibility, but in a way I’m like, but how could I not love it?

Amanda Buduris (40:04)
Yes. Yes. Everything in business across my therapy business, across my coaching business, that it’s kicked up all of my shit around not being worthy and not being enough. And like if only people liked me better, I was better. Like it kicks up all that stuff, especially being in service-based businesses, because people are

Sandra (40:24)
my god. But but being a fucking

therapist, like where like so much of it is like about like the person you are in the vibe

Amanda Buduris (40:32)
huh.

Sandra (40:33)
and like the whatever and like the way you speak and the cadence of your voice and the sound of it. And I’m just like, God, it’s so

Amanda Buduris (40:40)
Ha ha

Sandra (40:41)
like personal, it’s so painful when someone’s

Amanda Buduris (40:44)
Uh-huh.

Sandra (40:45)
like, I don’t wanna do therapy with you because it’s not like, your therapist skills suck. It’s like, I don’t like you.

Amanda Buduris (40:51)
Right.

huh. Yes. Yes. And as much as we can be like, well, I’m just not everyone’s therapist, like, yeah, it sucks to be rejected, whether that’s they never reached out to you to begin with or they left you. Yeah, right.

Sandra (41:02)
You’re not and they don’t like you.

Like sometimes they don’t like your personality.

Amanda Buduris (41:09)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Sandra (41:11)
And it’s not a skill thing. Sometimes they don’t like your personality. And got it, we

Amanda Buduris (41:15)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sandra (41:16)
all have to be okay with that or else we’re gonna be so burned out as therapists.

Amanda Buduris (41:23)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. I think too, when it comes to scaling businesses, whether that is your therapy business or you diversify income streams, like a large part of what I hear people get frustrated by in terms of not seeing growth faster is ultimately like the two things you have to leverage in business is your time and your money. So it’s like, well, do you want to spend all the time putting all this work into it or do you want to hire someone to take care of all?

For you, but so many people don’t want to spend money. Like they’re very, very conscious of their money. And I’m like, me growing up, very low income, seeing my mom put everything on credit cards, like I have a decreased sensitivity to just like, I don’t have the money right now. Fuck it, I’ll put it on a credit card. And it always comes back. It’s always fine. I

Sandra (42:14)
Like financial trauma for the win.

Amanda Buduris (42:17)
mean, but honestly though.

So that’s why people are like, Amanda, how do you like get so many successes so fast on like because I keep spending money before I have it? So I can

Sandra (42:25)
Those credit cards.

Amanda Buduris (42:27)
cause credit cards. They’re great. I get points, then I travel on points and I love it. But yeah, I like I trauma does have its its perks when it comes to being good at business, quite honestly.

Sandra (42:40)
Trauma perks.

Amanda Buduris (42:41)
Yeah, right? There should be points for that. But yeah, I think it’s just people who have a harder time, like

really believing either they can do it themselves or can someone else help me, knowing that there is some scammy shit out there. I’ll be honest about that. But I think, yeah, we just don’t see the big picture, especially on social media. We just see like Sandra was helpful in such a short amount of time. Amanda was, you know, successful in a short amount of time. Like, but again, what is all the behind the stuff? Behind the scenes stuff that goes into it, including like any healing work that we’ve had to do to keep pushing past

you know, this hardship that came up, this disappointment that came up, and whatever it is. Like it’s a it’s a lot of administrative and mental health work that goes into being successful.

Sandra (43:28)
The administrative load is so real. So real.

Amanda Buduris (43:32)
Yes.

Sandra (43:34)
And then getting in h a heavy administrative load with a heavy emotional load at the same time, which is like what I think in my experience with having a successful business is that you that you want to keep growing and you intend to keep growing is like, my lord, the challenge is so real.

so

real. Being like being whatever, these outward signs of, you know, success is like sorry, I’m hitting my desk. is like way harder than I don’t I didn’t sit around imagining it. For sure wasn’t. But like

I don’t know, when you hear people complain about like I’m so busy, like my inbox is full and this stuff, like it never sounded that bad to me, but the other side

Amanda Buduris (44:22)
Ha ha ha.

Sandra (44:23)
of it is like, this is really hard. This is actually really, really, really hard because you have to get used to letting go and and like genuinely some people like depending on where you are on your business journey

There are gonna be plenty of people who have the experience with you of like, she never responded to me, it took forever, ’cause like you’re just never gonna scale perfectly. So there are gonna be things that like drop through for periods of time while you’re trying to like problem solve that.

you know, problem and then like you do that one, but then there’s another one. And I think when people would counter you, they always kind of feel like this is the this is it, this is like the finished experience, like this is what it was like. And it’s like that’s what it was like at that one, you know, point in time. But businesses are so dynamic and problems are constantly arising all the time.

Amanda Buduris (45:23)
Yes.

Yes. Yep. Exactly. The it’s it’s interesting with with my coach. we talk a lot about all these like good problems to have. Like the fact that business is booming means there are good problems. Like, fuck, there are so many unread emails in my box. my god, I’m so behind on XYZ. my god, I don’t know what to like good problems to have, but still problems that need solving around. And so I think that’s a whole

Capacity thing generally for people to think about too, if they do want to scale, is like when you are successful, you have to prep for when you are successful. So I

Sandra (46:01)
Ha ha ha.

Amanda Buduris (46:02)
I need to give my team more hours so they can help me clear this damn inbox. But like, yeah, there’s just there’s always something to solve for in business, regardless of if you just have a therapy practice, if you add more streams of income, whatever. But I think that there needs to be this trust in yourself of.

There’s gonna be problems that come up and I’ll know how to manage it. Right. Like

Sandra (46:24)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (46:24)
having the healthy fear and anxiety we were talking about, but not just like avoiding things because you don’t think you can do it or it’s gonna take too long. But if it’s worth it and you trust yourself, then like spend the time developing and nurturing something.

Sandra (46:39)
Or the money and put it on a credit card as Amanda says.

Amanda Buduris (46:41)
Exactly.

Yes. Yes. Get some business points and then go travel on your business points.

Sandra (46:46)
So

nobody should be listening to this for like financial literacy tips.

Amanda Buduris (46:53)
No,

no, no, no, no, not necessarily. Sometimes I share helpful things, but sometimes I’m like, I don’t know, just put it on a credit card. So

Sandra (46:59)
Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (47:04)
Well, clearly you and I could talk forever and ever and ever. And I

Sandra (47:06)
Obviously.

Amanda Buduris (47:07)
wanna be mindful of your time. So any last things you wanna leave the listeners with in terms of things that you’ve found helpful in your journey, mistakes to avoid.

Sandra (47:20)
Yeah,

I don’t know. Well

Amanda Buduris (47:21)
That’s big question.

Sandra (47:22)
like like find something you want more than anything else and then go and do that, whether it has to do with your business or not. Either it’s directly related to your business or your business is supposed to support you in doing that thing that you really, really, really, really love. Otherwise all of the crappiness about being in private practice

And being a business owner doesn’t seem worth it. And every hard thing that comes up, you’re gonna be asking someone for advice on like how long did this take you and what can I expect and whatever and whatever. And like while that is important, at the end of the day, it’s like more important that you have something you really care about.

more than anything else and that you find a way to connect your livelihood to supporting you in doing that thing so that you love your life and you love your business or you at least love what your business can do.

for you so that you don’t have to like question these things as much as you do and you can spend more time going after it and like taking action and less time like analyzing the shit out of it. Like you just have to keep taking action and keep making mistakes like until you want to throw up, basically. Like if you’re doing that

Amanda Buduris (48:50)
Yes.

Sandra (48:51)
you’re probably doing it right and also make sure like, you know, it’s not everyday.

But like you’re gonna wanna quit your business so many, so many times. Like that’s not the sign that

Amanda Buduris (49:00)
Mm-hmm.

Sandra (49:01)
you should quit though. But I don’t know, maybe at some point it is. Yeah.

Amanda Buduris (49:04)
Ha ha.

Sandra (49:06)
Was there something else you asked me? I don’t remember.

Amanda Buduris (49:09)
Neither do I. But I think those are all all great takeaways of like the biggest thing is yes, you’re doing something that supports your now and supports your future, and that you love what you’re doing. And love always comes with, you know, the other side of the coin, right? Sometimes it is hard, sometimes it’s scary, sometimes you want to give up. But I think there’s a difference between, no, I’ve actually decided this doesn’t work for me anymore and I want to give it up, versus it’s just too hard and it’s taking too long. And so I’m giving up. Like those are very different.

reasons for letting something go. So exactly. Yes,

Sandra (49:41)
Yeah, you gotta get married to it. It’s the marriage.

Amanda Buduris (49:45)
it is. It is very much so. so like you said, you are on Instagram. Is that the best place for people to connect with you or how would you like people to connect and reach out if they resonate with what you share? Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Sandra (49:53)
Yeah. Do that. Find me find

me on Instagram, follow me, and never look at anything or ’cause you

Amanda Buduris (50:01)
Ha ha.

Sandra (50:02)
just want to support me but you don’t care about what I’m putting out. I don’t care. That helps me. Or like I mean do, you know, comment or whatever. That’s cool. Thanks.

Amanda Buduris (50:13)
Cool. We love the engagement. Yeah.

Cool. We’ll link your Instagram and I know you have a resource that you’re going to share with listeners too. We’ll link everything in the show notes for people to listen to. listen to, check out whatever word I’m looking for there. But otherwise, thank you so much for being on today. I think this was a super awesome conversation and might have to have you back on so we can just keep talking about things over and over again. Yeah.

Sandra (50:34)
We would love that. I would love. I won’t say the w

the the common wheel, hit you speak for yourself. Me

Amanda Buduris (50:39)
Ha ha ha

Sandra (50:41)
and my couch, we’d be into it.

Amanda Buduris (50:43)
Yes, awesome. Love it. All right. Thanks so much for your time today, Sandra.

Sandra (50:47)
Thank you.